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Surur

Dan,

Thanks for the headsup. Ill be buying a SD wifi card then while I wait for a unit with Wm2005.

Surur

Dan

OK, there are two Dan's posting here....
I made one a few days ago and I made another addressing Surur thinking that Surur's post to Dan was me, but it was not.

So, I'll be Dan B.

Anyway....

Dave,
To your point, and my previous comment that this was a profit play....

Of course the OEM's are in it for profit. What I am trying to say is that they are lying to the consumers to make this profit play (see my post above to Surur) and that this is a short sighted profit play that, in the long term, could do more harm than good.
The OEM's would rather sell new hardware than to sell upgrades. The problem is that this mentality is doing one of two things. It is either drastically stunting the growth of the segment or effectively killing it.
The idea is this. Not everyone is going to buy a new unit every year, but given a reasonable, yet profitable price, the OEM's can continue to make money from those who do not buy the new hardware every year through an OS upgrade. Instead, the OEM's have chosen to allienate their "Valued" customers by not supporting and fully utilizing the features built into products that they have sold, i.e. upgradeability.
So what are our choices? The common suggestion is, "If your not happy, let the OEM know by not buying their products." Really? What really happens is:
The HP owner goes to Dell because he/she is upset that HP did not provide an upgrade. The Dell owner goes to Toshiba for the same reason. The Toshiba person moves to an HP for the same reason yet again. After owning all three devices, this person is frusterated and either does not buy again for some time or moves on to another platform. This is the recipe for a slow and tragic death of a platform. At the very least it is a plan for a stagnant segment.

Again. Just my $.02.

Dave Evans

Dan,

I think you make a good point about the loop that consumers are in when voting with their dollar, and shuffling from one OEM to another. Unfortunately that leaves very little recourse for the consumer.

I don't agree with you senario of OEMs providing upgrades to customers who may not buy a new devices anyway. I just can't see them making anywhere near enough profit to be satified. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see it...I just don't see it happening in a larger way then it already is.

Surur,

Your worries of buying a new device now and not getting an upgrade may be warrented. Who knows for sure till the next version is done, and we see what is in the end product, and it can be talked about. This only serves to show one of the difficulties facing an OEM. How can they commit to an upgrade when they aren't even sure what it is and if it will work. I understand your arguements, and where you are coming from. I just don't agree with all of it.

Dave

Kimberly Lazarski

Oh boy, this topic again! ;)

I think the fault lies with both the OEMs and with Microsoft.

When Microsoft made flashable ROMs a requirement in order to use the PocketPC software platform for a product, they dropped the ball when they stopped short of requiring OEMs to release upgrades.

Contrary to what some have said here and on PocketPCThoughts, PocketPC prices are not just on par with PC prices, they are actually HIGHER than what most home PCs cost today. Look at the cheap Celeron and low-end Pentium 4 PCs that HP and Dell are pushing at under $500, or even under $400 in some cases. No, you're not getting a high-end PC for that price point, but it's still going to perform well and is very upgradable, and people do upgrade operating systems on their cheap PCs.

Enter the PocketPC: Where upgradable ROMs are a requirement, and up until recently HP was touting upgradability of their PocketPC models and phone reps promised they were going to be made available to prospective buyers, they committed out and out fraud by not delivering the upgrades. A $650 PocketPC for which buyers expected the new version of Windows Media Player and landscape mode to be released for in essence became useless for those buyers who bought based on that committment.

Also, they have effectively killed the market for high-end PocketPCs by dropping any chance of upgrades. I can understand not offering an upgrade for a sub-$300 PocketPC, but for the ones that cost $500 and up, what are you getting for your money? Vendors have knocked RAM back down from 128MB to 64MB, reduced expansion capability (both casio sleds and HP sleeves are dead), and turned them into disposable prices - overpriced ones, IMHO. What does $550 to $650 buy you that you won't get in a $350 PPC? Even low-end models offer both CF and SDIO slots, and some lower-end models with VGA resolution are appearing on the market.

Due to OEM decisions I've decided to stick with my old iPAQ 3670. It's expandable, gives me all of the flexibility I need, and the upgrades I WOULD pay for no longer exist (128MB of RAM, PCMCIA/PC Card support, etc.), and while it may be slower than current models, it's far more flexible because I have a much wider range of devices to choose from. I can keep a map of the entire continental United States on my PocketPC *AND* run my GPS at the same time, *AND* keep a library of MP3s on the PocketPC all at the same time. Not only that, if I need to run an ethernet on the PPC for packet sniffing and capture the data to a HDD using ethereal, I have that capability. SDIO ethernet adapters don't exist, and likely never will.

The OEMs are killing their own market. Due to their boneheaded decisions and by not offering upgrades and by not offering expansion capabilities, PocketPCs currently on the market don't interest me. With their refusal to support a device for longer than six months and with their refusal to offer upgrades, what incentive do I have to buy a new PocketPC? I'd have to lug a laptop around again, where by staying with my (now three generations old) current PocketPC I have far more capability, albeit with a slower processor.

OEMs, wake up!

Dave Evans

Kimberly you are a walking billboard for why it is economical suicide to provide unlimited upgrades. Once several years ago you bought a single Pocket PC. Since then you have bought all of one $29.95 upgrade. You own your own business. You are a smart women. Realistically how long do you think you would survive in business using this model? Not long!....Look, I'm not all that happy about this either. It's simple economics 101.

Glad to see you back. :)

Dave

Greg Stradling

I bought a 3870 Ipaq. It lasted one year and 2 months, when the video screen died, inspite of extreme loving care, no dropping accidents, and no non-hp accessaries. Being a long-time-satisfied Hp customer, I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I bought a 4150 Ipaq last Christmas. I been using the WiFi feature often, and was thinking how great it'll be to upgrade to the new Mobile software so I can see the internet and other programs landscaped. Now I find out Hp has orphaned my Ipaq before a year has even passed. I'm done with Ipaqs and I'm done with Hewlett Packard. This Christmas will be different than most. I'm retiring my Hp laserjet, my Hp inkjet, and my $6000 Hp Design Jet. No more new Hp's for me...ever.

Now, if the rest of you want to be patsies for Hp and other greedy companies like them you deserve the way they treat you. Just as soon as there is an realistic alternative for Microsoft, they are next on my list to make disappear from my life. I'll keep my 4150 Ipaq for a while, until another company shows some class, and deserves my business to replace. I can wait.

menajem

what do u think about xda and their offer in this web page http://lumpistefan.dyndns.org/
this is for xda and xdaII for flashing roms and be updated, is great for someone who got an old car and wants to replace some parts that look old but the manufacturer does not make that parts any more so have to go to a designer to make parts special for me. if manufacturer does not want to make, so don't make, i'll find by miself, when my car will get broken i'll buy a new one, why should i buy a new one if this still works

Almon B. Strowger

I think most consumers realize that technology changes pretty rapidly, and are somewhat sympathetic to the costs of maintaining older units / offering upgrades incurred by the OEMs. That said, customers should not be punished by the company that they choose to give their hard-earned money to--Especially when the customer pays full or near-full price for a unit that is obsoleted within weeks--(This has already been touched on.)
Therefore, I think the most reasonable thing for OEMs to do (in addition to critical patches) is to offer one and only one upgrade to the next version of the OS, be it free or by a *small* fee if the device is capable of handling it.

Sven

Just a couple of comments. Obsolescence..My BetaMax my turntable and my 8 track player are obsolete. My 4155 and 2215 are not obsolete because WM2003SE was released. They would be obsolete if the software currently being produced wouldn't run on them because they can't go landscape, or I couldn't rip and play CDs because I don't have WMP10. Do you consider your car and DVD player obsolete because the manufacturer has released a new model with more features.

The OEMs have not, IMHO, abandoned my PPCs. Many still have a warranty in effect which protects what they bought. There were software updates issued for my 2215 and 4155 after WM2003SE was out. Those updates took advantage of the flashable ROM that MS specified. Without the flashable ROM, any patches, updates or enhancements would be loaded into RAM taking up valuable room.

Joseph Gluckstern

I read the review and then all the comments and I think most of you have said what I want to say, especially the stuff about HP. One final comment concerning HP. They promised anything out as of Q3 2004 would have WM2003SE. I have a 6315 and I don't think so. They claim that’s a phone edition and does not count. This was there long and I mean long awaited and fully retooled, first PPC phone edition. This device was obviously designed by a PPC person and not someone who has worked with phoned edition before. I understand profit and loss, but this crap is not necessary. I think it's time for Ms Fiorina to go. I quote a article from Business Week Online: HP's Carly Fiorina: The Boss: Her challenge will be to propel staid Hewlett-Packard into the Internet Age without sacrificing the very things that have made it great. The company has become sour from the top down and it's time to clean house. Give her, her golden parachute and take out the trash

Dale Coffing

Boy this is a "hot" topic. I agree that not having the h6315 ship without WM2203SE is a pain.... but it isn't like it isn't useful. It just would have been nicer to have it with the latest.

I don't use it as my primary device though. The processor and RAM don't meet the 'power user' requirements in me. ;-)

Dan B.

Put simply:

- The spec for the hardware mandates flashable ROM.

- The price, as compared to full size, OS upgradeable PC's is astonishing to not provide for any OS Upgrade path.

- When the OEM's have offered upgrades, they have been readily purchased.

- Developed efficiently and priced appropriatly, upgrades can be profitable.

- The OEM's are trying to use software upgrades to lure people back vs. hardware improvements as with PC's and virtually all other consumer electronics. If the OEM's offered something worthwhile in terms of the hardware, people would be lured back. Instead the OEM's are using the OS as their upgrade crutch.

- Lack of positive consumer sentiment which results from positive OEM support, is likley to threaten the platform.

I don't buy this whole OS Upgrades are not profitable argument. What does MS charge the OEM's for the OS? I seem to remember reading that it was somewhere south of the $30 I paid for the Dell PPC2003 upgrade that I bought for an Axim X5. Actually, it seems like it was south of $20. Not profitable....RIGHT!

How about some waterfront property in Florida, or a bridge I can show you.....

Chuck White

This may be the worst abuse of the MS/OEM arrangement (politely put) yet.

I purchased my Siemens SX56 with PPC 2002. A year or so later, I installed PPC 2003. ActiveSync stopped working unless you did a system reset. Siemens then pulled the upgrade.

A call to Siemens support left me waiting for the next upgrade for a fix.

A recent support call informed me no upgrade would EVER be made.

Am I mad? You bet. Will I buy a Siemens Model Anything again? Absolutely not! Will I buy a PPC device again? I haven't decided yet.

This is the effect of the policy on Joe Averge Consumer. ... by the way ... Do I care if PPC continues as an OS? Not if they ignore the loyal consumer.

Tonyg

Dave,

You are absoultly right. People these days feel they live in a Socialist Country where everything should be handed to them. Guess What! Capitalism and freedom of choice is what makes America Great and Strong. I am sure that HP, Dell and the others are not out for charitable contributions, they are going to do what is most profitable and what will sell the most PDAs. They have great marketing and research teams, and I am sure that after figuring out the cost of upgrades to the consumer, vs. the cost of new hardware, the consumer would rather buy new hardware. As well in most cases by the time a newer version of OS comes out, there is also advances in the hardware, that most users would also like to have. Flashable ROMS makes a lot of sense for bug fixes, if the ROM was not flashable. the fixes would be eating up that valuble RAM.

I know a lot of people out there that upgrade their desktop hardware about about 3 times more than their operating systems. A one to one ratio on PDAs ain't that bad.

Ahhh.... The power of the mighty dollar... Everyone wants it. If you want to keep your job, your company needs to profit, bottom line.

Stefan

Updates?

Well my H2210 will not be updated to WM2k3SE because HP will not supply it. I see some basic facts draw my and conclusions:

I will never rely on an OEM that he will provide updates. HP did offer a System-Patch to fix some problems of WM2k3 on the H2210 which I am thankfull for.

Evalutating the difference between WM2k3SE and WM2k3 makes me fell less neglected. Reviewing the screenshots of landscape-screens in most apps is simply a waste of precious space which is the reason why successful PDAs have portrait-oriented screens. The IE-enhancements might be upgraded by a third-party solution (spb Plus), so about the Transcriber. Any othe major enhancements in WM2k3SE compared to WM2k3??

I.m.h.o. an upgrade-fee to update from WM2k3 towards WM2k3 would be a rip-off! Look carefully what you are paying for!

The appealing thing of new PPCs to me is not WM2k3SE but the VGA-Screen. Well this kind of update i would not expect...

A couple of weeks ago there was an interesting rumor on CE.NET5.0 on www.pocketpcthoughts.com. It that is true I'll be happy to wait and save my money.

Kind regards.
Stefan

Rick

Just to add my two cents...Dell specifically, introduces the X30, simplay an X3 with a slightly faster processor. Supports WM 2003 SE, provides and update for the X5, but will not provide an upgrade for the X3. And by the way, they have replaced my X3 twice due to hardware problems, and both times the replacement was made after the X30 was out. I know I won't by another Dell PPC, and I agree with earlier comments that if I can find a mfg. that has provided upgrades during the first year of ownership, they are the one I will go to next. But unless most of them change there ways I guess I'll just have to switch to a Palm device.

Dave Evans

@Rick, I have to admit I'm completely in hte dark when it comes to Palm knowledge...what is their policy or normal procedure for upgrades?

Dave

Sven

I thought I'd browse around to see if I could find some info on Dave's question. Though this is old, It just amused the heck out of me. I'll quopte the first para, to give you the gist.
"In late Spring, Palm Inc. began shipping the first handhelds with OS 4.0, the m500 series. Since then, many users have asked when an upgrade would be available for older models. This is not a simple question. Each manufacturer has to create a separate version that works for its own handhelds. The fact that the manufacturers have added important new features to their models and their models only makes this process even more complicated. Then these versions need to be tested and approved by Palm Inc. before they can be released."
The rest is at http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=2130.

Dave Evans

Priceless, Sven! :-)

Dan B.

Sven and Dave,

The subject of this thread and Sven's recent info on Palm lead us to one ultimate conclusion. The segment is destined for an early demise. This may be sooner than we all think. Why do I say this? Why is the segment doomed so soon after its inception?

The primary reason is that OEM's will kill the segment by mismanagement of the product lifecycle, poor marketing, ignoring customer demand, and the list goes on. You all know the drill.

A secondary reason is that there is a product convergance coming down the pike and the other product that Windows Mobile is converging with is it's BIG brother, Windows. The same thing is happening on the Palm side. The recent announcement of a Linux base for future Palm OS's is proof positive of this convergance.

That said, only two questions remain.

1. Will the ultimate doom of the segment/convergance occur before or after PC's like the OQO or the new Sony etc. get as small as PDA's?

2. Will the ultimate doom of the segment/convergance occur before or after the standard PC OS's adapt some form of an instant on function.

Oh well. We can just enjoy our Windows Mobile machines while they last.

Mark P.

I just bought a new Toshiba because my Compaq was only one year old when HP announced they would not release the WM2003 upgrade for it. When it came to replacement time, I looked at anything that was not an HP.
I understand that upgrades cost money, and it would be cheaper for me to pay $100 every two years (for a "major" upgrade) than it is to replace all the device-specific hardware I accumulate. I just spent the cost of my new PDA in new peripherals and software updates!
If Microsoft and/or the OEM's don't want to be helpful, I wonder if there isn't a glowing opportunity for a promising developer to build a new OS that will flash into the devices? Isn't there room for a new Bill Gates? Maybe even linux-based like the Sharp device runs? In short, if the manufacturers don't want to upgrade us, let's look for other opportunities to make the most of our significant device investment.

Sven

Hmmm, interesting concepts from Dan and Mark. Here's my 2 cents on those. I don't deny that Windows PCs are getting smaller and will likely rival PPCs for size at some point. Given the instant on thing can be overcome, and there are ways, I don't think folks will be happy with PPC sized full windows devices. UNLESS, software is available for them. Current windows software is designed pretty much assuming you are running 800x600 at a bare minimum. 1024x768 seems more normal. Even if you could get a 3.5 -4" screen at 1024x768, you wouldn't be able to read it without a magnifying glass. What I'm saying is that software will have to be specifically written/re-written for a mobile hand sized PC even if it does run full Windows. Of course that's a whole new market, but I think a niche one, because I don't think tiny full windows machines will sell that well. I think they will be too underpowered and overpriced to use with a desk setup as a desktop replacement and too unviewable to be used as a real laptop replacement.

Mark, I'm not sure how you won. You bought a new PPC and then spent a PPC's worth on new peripherals. Had you just bought an HP, you likely could have saved on at least some of the extra expense. Toshiba hasn't been any more or less consistant than HP or Dell about OS upgrades. They have been pretty consistant with maintenance updates for their various devices though. I don't think you can count software updates into your expense equation though. Even if HP had delivered an OS update to your current Compaq, you'd likely have had to do that. Seems like all you managed was to spend extra money to feel good about not buying an HP. Remains to be seen if your bet pays off and Toshiba offers a PPC2005 upgrade. If they don't, guess you'll have to buy a Dell ;)

Sean Hatfield

The OEM's may feel it is all about profits, but it's really all about Marketing. And this is really poor marketing.

We have all been lied to, and we know all know it. It's one thing if it is well planned and executed so the customers are kept in the dark, but this was not well planned. And we are a pretty well informed group of customers. We are angry, and we have every right to be.

All anger aside, while we once expected to be able to upgrade, we now expect not to. This is not the golden goose the OEMs thing it is. They have killed the market for high end devices. It was much easier to justify buying $650 PDAs when you thought you could upgrade them after a while. Now, with the expected 12 month product cycle, $200 is pushing it.

When I bought my 2200, I expected to get about 2 years of use out of it based on the history of upgrades in the Ipaq line. Now I won't buy anything HP for either business or personal use. It's not just the PDAs they dropped the ball on. My personal laptop is an X1000 series. They were sold as having Radeon9200 video chips, when they really had Radeon9000 chips. My office has 6 HP4101MFPs that shipped with fax boards that never worked correctly, and never will. They've tried releases firmware patches to overcome a flawed hardware design, but they seem to be as good at writing firmware as they are at designing fax boards.

We just can't support this kind of behaviour. If the platform dies, it is the OEMs fault. Everything HP touches turns to coal.

Luis Garcia

Hmmm... I thought I had gotten over my anger on this subject but I realise that it was simmerimg waiting for a thread like this to appear.

let me get one thing clear before I continue, I own a H5550 and i'm very happy with it, and as other posters have said it is not outdated because HP has decided not to supply an upgrade, actually if anything it is better than most current offerings.

My gripe is with the underlying modus operandi behind the decision. Major manufacturer sells expensive item, then relies on users to solve most of their problems (see HPs support forums) and when an upgrade is available they ignore public demand (http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?HPWMK3SE 14000+ people can't be wrong) and hope they will buy their new generation devices which can run the new upgrade. I always thought that Manufacturers should provide what the customer wants but in this case I agree with Ben Ries that the customer is made to feel that we owe gratitude to the manufacturers.

I (like all of us in this thread) am not stupid and I realise that profit and only profit is what drives OEMs. What I object vehemently to is to being treated as if I am stupid by the OEMs. There was a very heated debate in the support forums of HP when they decided not to provide an upgrade to their current devices and the basic question everybody had was: Why?

HP told us that is was not feasible due to hardware reasons which they listed. Some of the posters counteracted their response point by point and still HP did not come out straight and said that it was not profitable as though they felt it was wrong to say so, instead they lied through their teeth. Eventually HP censored their own support forum and deleted any post which mentioned HPs decision not to upgrade...

I have read many articles and websites that specialise in this platform and every reviewer takes the softly softly approach to the situation but unfortunately this is not representative of the current feelings amongst owners (see above link). I am not happy with HP fobbing me off with lame excuses, I can understand my machine not being upgradable to WM2005 but not even WMP10! Come on pull the other one!

Will I ever buy HP again? - I really doubt it. Will I ever buy PPC again? NO!

BTW if you read HPs support forums you will find that it is littered with people complaining that they cannot find XP drivers for printers which were pre XP as HP couldn't be bothered to write them.

That's it I've got it off my chest. Happy new year everyone!

Kelly

I have only read about half of this page but it is always the same argument.

I understand both sides of it and I think both have their merits. But I believe that the main thing is getting overlooked and maybe even entirely ignored altogether.

NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON HERE BOUGHT THEIR POCKET PC "BECAUSE" OF THE POTENTIAL FOR UPGRADES!

You and I bought them because of what they do and the features that they have. Yes, I would like upgradeability and I was hoping that I would have that option in Feb 2004 when I bought my iPaq 2210. However, I bought the 2210 because of what it does and it is still doing that now (without OS upgrade). I am using it now for every reason that I bought it then.

It is still an awesome product even though I can't upgrade it. Are those of you who are angry (and you do have that right) now unable to use your devices? If so send them to me because I can make a ministry out of giving your perfectly functional devices to people who cannot afford to buy one. My guess is that they would be happy with them even though no upgrades are available.

Please learn to enjoy your pocketpc and let the Jones' keep up with themselves. Maybe I will be able to afford a new PocketPC in a couple of years and maybe the new offerings at that time will make my current model look like a palmIII. And then again maybe not.

I will certainly still be enjoying this one though.

Kelly

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